Ways to promote FreeBSD?

[Nenhum_de_Nos-2]

On Fri, April 27, 2012 18:30, Freddie Cash wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 2:18 PM, Mehmet Erol Sanliturk
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> My opinion is that most important obstacle in front of FreeBSD is its
>> installation structure :
>>
>> It is NOT possible to install and use a FreeBSD distribution directly as it
>> is .
>>
>> In Linux distributions , when a distribution is installed , the user , NOT
>> root , can use its facilities WITHOUT setting a ( large ) number of parameters
>> which it is approximately ZERO .
>>
>> Contrary to this , when a FreeBSD is installed , an ordinary user can NOT
>> use USB , CD/DVD , etc. , and even key board / mouse in X without setting
>> MANY parameters in MANY files ( loder.conf , rc.conf , etc. ) .
>>
>> This point is a very important difficulty for the beginners and a really
>> very tiring for experienced users .
>
> And that's a good thing.  :)  It forces people to learn.  And it
> allows people to create the system *they* need, instead of being
> forced to use the system "the project" thinks everyone needs.
>
> We spend a good 2-3 hours customising Ubuntu Server and Debian Linux
> installs to make them work they way *we* want them to, with the
> software *we* want, and the configurations *we* need.  Most of that
> time is spent undoing all the "helpful" abstractions that
> Ubuntu/Debian devs think make life simpler (and they do, *IF* you use
> a GUI to manage things, but CLI users are left in the cold).  Just
> look at the horrible mess that is GRUB2 configuration on
> Ubuntu/Debina, with shell script snippets spread through 4 different
> directories.  Great for GUI tools to parse and update, but a royal
> pain for CLI users.

that could not be more true.

Ubuntu won't even ask if you want GRUB, it installs it and will replace your bootloader
regardless. I hate that.

this is one reason to just use ubuntu where it is alone, and won't harm no OS. FreeBSD asks, and
will respect my will to choose.

matheus

--
We will call you Cygnus,
The God of balance you shall be

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style
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[Perry Hutchison]

Mehmet Erol Sanliturk <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 8:06 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I'm wondering if spinning up a "live DVD" desktop version, using
> > GENERIC, and/or Gnome/KDE might be a good option to take FreeBSD
> > for a test drive ...
>
> There is such a very nice distribution :
>
> http://ghostbsd.org/

Also, freesbie.org
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[Mehmet Erol Sanliturk]

On Sat, Apr 28, 2012 at 11:24 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Mehmet Erol Sanliturk <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 8:06 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > I'm wondering if spinning up a "live DVD" desktop version, using
> > > GENERIC, and/or Gnome/KDE might be a good option to take FreeBSD
> > > for a test drive ...
> >
> > There is such a very nice distribution :
> >
> > http://ghostbsd.org/
>
> Also, freesbie.org
>

The above link is not complete .
The freesbie.org is working as follows :

http://www.freesbie.org/


Others :

http://www.desktopbsd.net/


There are some links in the page :

http://www.livebsd.org/


Thank you very much .

Mehmet Erol Sanliturk
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[Lars Engels-2]

On Sat, Apr 28, 2012 at 09:08:18PM -0400, Mehmet Erol Sanliturk wrote:

> On Sat, Apr 28, 2012 at 11:24 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Mehmet Erol Sanliturk <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 8:06 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > I'm wondering if spinning up a "live DVD" desktop version, using
> > > > GENERIC, and/or Gnome/KDE might be a good option to take FreeBSD
> > > > for a test drive ...
> > >
> > > There is such a very nice distribution :
> > >
> > > http://ghostbsd.org/
> >
> > Also, freesbie.org
> >
>
> The above link is not complete .
> The freesbie.org is working as follows :
>
> http://www.freesbie.org/
>
>
> Others :
>
> http://www.desktopbsd.net/
>
>
> There are some links in the page :
>
> http://www.livebsd.org/

FreesBIE and DesktopBSD are loooong dead....

Why don't we add a link to PC-BSD and maybe GhostBSD (though I read at
[1] that it needs to be polished more to be a user-friendly distro) to
the "LATEST RELEASES" section on freebsd.org?
That way we could promote FreeBSD on the desktop, have more people try
and run PC-BSD and keep simple "how do I set up a desktop?" questions
from freebsd-questions@

[1] http://www.linuxbsdos.com/2012/02/02/ghostbsd-2-5-review/

[Lars Engels-2]

On Sat, Apr 28, 2012 at 07:39:25AM +0200, Wojciech Puchar wrote:

> >
> > My opinion is that most important obstacle in front of FreeBSD is its installation structure :
> >
> >
> > It is NOT possible to install and use a FreeBSD distribution directly as it is .
> >
> > In Linux distributions , when a distribution is installed , the user , NOT root ,
> > can use its facilities WITHOUT setting a ( large ) number of parameters which it is approximately ZERO .
>
> why do you try to position this OS as windows/Mac OS replacement? Unix
> will never be and is not designed for it, but for users that want to have
> real control of computers.

Mac OSD _is_ a UNIX: http://www.linux-mag.com/id/4376
So, why not use a UNIX on the Desktop? :)

[Wojciech Puchar-5]

>>
>> There is such a very nice distribution :
>>
>> http://ghostbsd.org/
>
> Also, freesbie.org

That's great - there are "distributions" with ready to use "desktop"
environments etc. etc. while the main one is always the same. Everyone
gets what he/she needs.
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[Wojciech Puchar-5]

>
> FreeBSD installation and boot style are very nice . Personally I dislike very much Ubuntu-like installs ( nothing is displayed about
> what is going on ) and I never use it ( in spite of I am installing each release of it ) .

Another way to promote FreeBSD - show Solaris first. Yesterday just to
look downloaded from oracle. Incredibly slow, no idea what's going on not
only while installing but when trying to do anything and understand /etc/
hierarchy. incredible slow mess - this is "the most advanced unix" from
Oracle.
I prefer "less advanced" FreeBSD
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[Wojciech Puchar-5]

> there are lots of services that could benefit from FreeBSD who are
> not very aware of it.  They may have heard the name, and even know
> that it is an OS, but have heard it passed off as a non-entity in
> the field and do not know better than that.
>
Don't really understand you.

Basically everything that is open source compiles under FreeBSD out of the
box (or out of ports) or can be ported without big work.

Even if you have binary only 99% of the time linux emulation works great
(for me it worked 100% of time).

And yes - linux is faster if you run one program at a time and measures
how fast openoffice loads. When you get to make greatly loaded server you
will end it buying 50 servers to split "high" load or install FreeBSD.

Everyone have a choice. I really can't imagine serving average sized
company using one server running linux, with file transfers going over
gigabit ethernet from multiple workstations, AND with everyone using
his/her mail AND sendmail receives/sends mails and passes through antispam
and antivirus and greylister AND lots of people view their website, AND
there are 5 virtualboxed windoze session to run old software under windoze
XP AND doing web proxy AND encrypting everything on disk.

Still - getting by average one core saturated, with good deal of it being
encryption (fortunately AESNI support here). All this AT THE SAME TIME on
lower end dell T110-II tower server with 4 disks and 8GB RAM and single
quad core xeon.

If someone want to sell a lot of hardware then he/she will not like
FreeBSD!

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[Chris Rees-2]

On 29 Apr 2012 16:33, "Wojciech Puchar" <[hidden email]>
wrote:
>>
>>
>> FreeBSD installation and boot style are very nice . Personally I dislike
very much Ubuntu-like installs ( nothing is displayed about
>> what is going on ) and I never use it ( in spite of I am installing each
release of it ) .
>
>
> Another way to promote FreeBSD - show Solaris first. Yesterday just to
look downloaded from oracle. Incredibly slow, no idea what's going on not
only while installing but when trying to do anything and understand /etc/
hierarchy. incredible slow mess - this is "the most advanced unix" from
Oracle.
> I prefer "less advanced" FreeBSD
>

Ridiculing other projects is not a great way to show superiority.

Chris
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[Garrett Cooper]

On Apr 29, 2012, at 8:47 AM, Chris Rees <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 29 Apr 2012 16:33, "Wojciech Puchar" <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> FreeBSD installation and boot style are very nice . Personally I dislike
> very much Ubuntu-like installs ( nothing is displayed about
>>> what is going on ) and I never use it ( in spite of I am installing each
> release of it ) .
>>
>>
>> Another way to promote FreeBSD - show Solaris first. Yesterday just to
> look downloaded from oracle. Incredibly slow, no idea what's going on not
> only while installing but when trying to do anything and understand /etc/
> hierarchy. incredible slow mess - this is "the most advanced unix" from
> Oracle.
>> I prefer "less advanced" FreeBSD
>>
>
> Ridiculing other projects is not a great way to show superiority.

+1

Leave mudslinging to marketing and politicians :)..

-Garrett
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[Wojciech Puchar-5]

>
> Mac OSD _is_ a UNIX: http://www.linux-mag.com/id/4376
> So, why not use a UNIX on the Desktop? :)
>
as well as my VoIP phone gateway software. as well as Mac software it is
unix based but NOT meant for it's user to interact with unix commands or
even know it is.

Just opposite to FreeBSD/amd64.

Nothing wrong to use FreeBSD (because of zero-restriction BSD licence)
this way and actually used that way often - eg. Juniper routers.

But why so many people here want everyone (or at least a lot of ordinary
people) to use it willingly, while 99.9% of people will not be able to
ever learn any unix? or actually any software except of point and click.

No idea.

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[Wojciech Puchar-5]

> >
> > Another way to promote FreeBSD - show Solaris first. Yesterday just to look downloaded from oracle. Incredibly slow, no idea
> what's going on not only while installing but when trying to do anything and understand /etc/ hierarchy. incredible slow mess - this
> is "the most advanced unix" from Oracle.
> > I prefer "less advanced" FreeBSD
> >
>
> Ridiculing other projects is not a great way to show superiority.

So?

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[Wojciech Puchar-5]

>>> I prefer "less advanced" FreeBSD
>>>
>>
>> Ridiculing other projects is not a great way to show superiority.
>
> +1
>
> Leave mudslinging to marketing and politicians :)..
>
> -Garrett
>
>

as for now you and few other people work hard to DE-promote FreeBSD from
those few people that are able to make use of it but yet didn't.

Or more exact - delay, because those that need it sooner or later will
start using it.
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[Erich Dollansky-5]

Hi,

On Monday 30 April 2012 12:14:39 Wojciech Puchar wrote:

> > >
> > > Another way to promote FreeBSD - show Solaris first. Yesterday just to look downloaded from oracle. Incredibly slow, no idea
> > what's going on not only while installing but when trying to do anything and understand /etc/ hierarchy. incredible slow mess - this
> > is "the most advanced unix" from Oracle.
> > > I prefer "less advanced" FreeBSD
> > >
> >
> > Ridiculing other projects is not a great way to show superiority.
>
> So?

I also wonder? He did not write this 'most advanced unix; but showed only what they result of their efforts was. Why blame the messenger for the bad message?

Yes, I have had to work with this kind of software for some time.

Erich
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[Garrett Cooper]

On Apr 29, 2012, at 10:16 PM, Wojciech Puchar wrote:

>>>> I prefer "less advanced" FreeBSD
>>>>
>>>
>>> Ridiculing other projects is not a great way to show superiority.
>>
>> +1
>>
>> Leave mudslinging to marketing and politicians :)..

> as for now you and few other people work hard to DE-promote FreeBSD from those few people that are able to make use of it but yet didn't.

        I'm sorry… I didn't realize that resorting to petty tactics to achieve one's goals was the way to do things.
        If it's better, the proof will be in the pudding and people will flock to it (as another old adage goes -- if you build it, they will come): plain and simple.

> Or more exact - delay, because those that need it sooner or later will start using it.

        Advertising that it exists and is used is more important than saying "x sucks, use y instead". This is the tone I was getting from the previous response and this is what I discourage as well as others on the list.
        If you can do it in a non-confrontational way, I'd say do it. Otherwise, please don't force your opinion down others' throats.
Thanks,
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[Wojciech Puchar-5]

> Advertising that it exists and is used is more important than saying "x sucks, use y instead". This is the tone I was getting from the previous response and this is what I discourage as well as others on the list.

It was just an example. I don't use FreeBSD because Oracle Solaris sucks
but because it works best for me. No other unix not only is as fast
but allows so easy tuning like compiling own kernel and configuring
things.

What do you prefer - few files in /etc, like rc.conf to configure almost
everything in base system (+starting installed ports), or thousands of
files in modern "linux distro" or oracle solaris?

Sorry but when i HAD to deal with linux i just deleted most of /etc and
write my own /etc/rc.


Solaris 11 was just an example of overadvertised things that are just
useless.  Linux is "trendy" and quality is second thing, but it had to be
everywhere including things that should not have OS at all, like VoIP
gateway.
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[Garrett Cooper]

On Apr 30, 2012, at 10:09 PM, Wojciech Puchar wrote:

>> Advertising that it exists and is used is more important than saying "x sucks, use y instead". This is the tone I was getting from the previous response and this is what I discourage as well as others on the list.
>
> It was just an example. I don't use FreeBSD because Oracle Solaris sucks but because it works best for me. No other unix not only is as fast but allows so easy tuning like compiling own kernel and configuring things.
>
> What do you prefer - few files in /etc, like rc.conf to configure almost everything in base system (+starting installed ports), or thousands of files in modern "linux distro" or oracle solaris?
>
> Sorry but when i HAD to deal with linux i just deleted most of /etc and write my own /etc/rc.

Joe user, students, etc really don't care about the underlying system as long as the GUIs obscure this. OSX is a prime example of this (the OSX CLI has sucked for a long time). Only sysadmin and CLI power users care how things like this are organized. I think this is the usability boat that's been missed for a while on *nix.

> Solaris 11 was just an example of overadvertised things that are just useless.  Linux is "trendy" and quality is second thing, but it had to be everywhere including things that should not have OS at all, like VoIP gateway.

Sun isn't Oracle, so I don't expect them to put forth a decent general purpose OS offering. As far as Linux is concerned, in some ways it's good Linux has become a niche OS, and in some ways it's bad, but you can't take back the fact that it is what it is right now.

Thanks,
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[Wojciech Puchar-5]

>
> Joe user, students, etc really don't care about the underlying system as long as the GUIs obscure this.
Indeed you are right. Actually they don't completely know what happens.
This is normal, but the poor word in your sentence is "students".
Unfortunately, from my observations, this is completely true.

>OSX is a prime example of this (the OSX CLI has sucked for a long time).
> Only sysadmin and CLI power users care how things like this are
>organized. I think this is the usability boat that's been missed for a
>while on *nix.

True. And my point is - don't promote FreeBSD in that area. Mac OS X,
Windows, "Modern" linux distros will always be "better" than FreeBSD when
judged by joe user who "owns" computer.

Yes i used parantheses in "owns" because he/she don't really own her
computer, just paid for it and is enslaved.

FreeBSD can be great when used by "joe user" BUT when joe user does not
install it, configure it or know root password at all, but QUALIFIED
sysadmin configured everything for joe.

"Joe" may use thin client to connect to timesharing server with
FreeBSD and this is my favourite example.

(actually i use X terminal made from obsolete PCs line pentium 133-500MHz
PII, which are intentionally downclocked and fans removed, disks removed -
SILENCE, low power).

Even with trendy GUI (but configured by root user, not joe user) it works
quick, fast and predictable with cost of servicing close to zero.

This is right target for FreeBSD "advertising" IMHO, but not "personal
computer" market.

Again i used parantheses for "personal computer" as for many years users
don't completely know what is going on on "their" computers and are owned
by them.



Do you now finally understood what i mean and why i am against your kind
of "promotion"?

You won't promote Ferrari for people that now use everyday small city car.
Inexperienced driver can only kill him/herself given top line Ferrari, and
trying to make Ferrari to by "easy to use" will badly reduce it's
performance.

>
>> Solaris 11 was just an example of overadvertised things that are just useless.  Linux is "trendy" and quality is second thing, but it had to be everywhere including things that should not have OS at all, like VoIP gateway.
>
> Sun isn't Oracle, so I don't expect them to put forth a decent general purpose OS offering. As far as Linux is concerned, in some ways it's good Linux has become a niche OS, and in some ways it's bad, but you can't take back the fact that it is what it is right now.

Sun IS Oracle from some time.
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[Chris-5]

On Tue, 1 May 2012 09:26:30 +0200 (CEST)
Wojciech Puchar <[hidden email]> wrote:

> >
> > Joe user, students, etc really don't care about the underlying
> > system as long as the GUIs obscure this.
> Indeed you are right. Actually they don't completely know what
> happens. This is normal, but the poor word in your sentence is
> "students". Unfortunately, from my observations, this is completely
> true.
>
> >OSX is a prime example of this (the OSX CLI has sucked for a long
> >time).
> > Only sysadmin and CLI power users care how things like this are
> >organized. I think this is the usability boat that's been missed for
> >a while on *nix.
>
> True. And my point is - don't promote FreeBSD in that area. Mac OS X,
> Windows, "Modern" linux distros will always be "better" than FreeBSD
> when judged by joe user who "owns" computer.
>
> Yes i used parantheses in "owns" because he/she don't really own her
> computer, just paid for it and is enslaved.
>
> FreeBSD can be great when used by "joe user" BUT when joe user does
> not install it, configure it or know root password at all, but
> QUALIFIED sysadmin configured everything for joe.
>
> "Joe" may use thin client to connect to timesharing server with
> FreeBSD and this is my favourite example.
>
> (actually i use X terminal made from obsolete PCs line pentium
> 133-500MHz PII, which are intentionally downclocked and fans removed,
> disks removed - SILENCE, low power).
>
> Even with trendy GUI (but configured by root user, not joe user) it
> works quick, fast and predictable with cost of servicing close to
> zero.
>
> This is right target for FreeBSD "advertising" IMHO, but not
> "personal computer" market.
>
> Again i used parantheses for "personal computer" as for many years
> users don't completely know what is going on on "their" computers and
> are owned by them.

I think "The power to serve", pretty much sums it up nicely. :-)

>
>
>
> Do you now finally understood what i mean and why i am against your
> kind of "promotion"?
>
> You won't promote Ferrari for people that now use everyday small city
> car. Inexperienced driver can only kill him/herself given top line
> Ferrari, and trying to make Ferrari to by "easy to use" will badly
> reduce it's performance.
>
> >
> >> Solaris 11 was just an example of overadvertised things that are
> >> just useless.  Linux is "trendy" and quality is second thing, but
> >> it had to be everywhere including things that should not have OS
> >> at all, like VoIP gateway.
> >
> > Sun isn't Oracle, so I don't expect them to put forth a decent
> > general purpose OS offering. As far as Linux is concerned, in some
> > ways it's good Linux has become a niche OS, and in some ways it's
> > bad, but you can't take back the fact that it is what it is right
> > now.
>

While I know this probably seems pointless, based on your
observation(s). I can't help but wonder if initiating a
"BSD awareness day", might not be a bad idea. I can see
where, if targeted at students, this might be especially
effective -- this IS where BSD all started, wasn't it? :-)

just my $0.02 :-)

> Sun IS Oracle from some time.
Right you are!.

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[Giorgos Keramidas]

On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 11:18 PM, Mehmet Erol Sanliturk
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Another point is that server installers are highly educated with respect to
> desktop installers and their numbers are small with respect to desktop
> users .
>
> For them , it is very easy to "harden" FreeBSD after installation if ever
> it is needed , because during installation , it is a simple question to ask
> :
>
> Will  this be used as a Server ?

Judging from the amount of effort it takes to "harden" a system
that already starts a thousand services (typical "desktop Linux"
scenario these days), and the number of times I've seen this
sort of customization cause even more headaches, I'd say this
is a slightly exaggerated statement.

You are right that a "plain user" does not care about why their
CD-ROM is not accessible after installation, but there are two
different ways to approach this:

- Install and enable everything by default, hoping that nothing
  bad happens when an unused service is exploitable.
- Install a minimal system and build from there.

Most Linux distributions pick the first option. _Some_ Linux
distributions pick the second option (e.g. Gentoo).

The default FreeBSD installation uses the second option.
PC-BSD leans towards the first option, and does a really good
job at making a BSD desktop 'accessible' to what is usually
called "the average user".

So it all depends on what you want to do, and there _are_ options
that cover both cases for either Linux or BSD.
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